tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post7581127972831503118..comments2023-11-16T03:57:05.158-05:00Comments on The Cuban Triangle: Applause for the coupPhil Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06724525896667349935noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-9548855933650835382009-07-06T15:59:14.169-04:002009-07-06T15:59:14.169-04:00Newspaperman, the whole world has said clearly wha...Newspaperman, the whole world has said clearly what needs to happen. The elected needs to be restored to his rightful place. Period. There will be an election in 5 months where he will then be gone. Allowing a coup to occur in blatant violation of the Constitution - and changing electoral rules - does nothing but set back the rule of law in Central America decades. The coupsters in Honduras and their defenders in Miami are the only ones trying to find a way to legitimize their actions and make all this commotion about democracy go away.leftsidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00676827005815770066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-10232348871350371642009-07-02T20:19:59.508-04:002009-07-02T20:19:59.508-04:00In his latest syndicated article, Carlos Alberto M...In his latest syndicated article, Carlos Alberto Montaner makes an interesting suggestion. He says:<br />"If a conflict explodes, one of the poorest countries in the Americas will suffer the bloodletting already experienced by Guatemala, El Salvador and Nicaragua during the Cold War.<br /><br />"However, there is a satisfactory solution within almost everyone's reach -- to move up the general elections planned for November. The candidates are already there, freely elected in open primaries, and both enjoy much popularity. Why plunge that society irresponsibly into a maelstrom of violence? Once the new government is selected, a government enveloped in the legitimacy generated by a democratic process, the Honduran people can put this lamentable episode behind them."<br /><br />I'd be interested in your reaction.<br />/s/ NEWSPAPERMAN.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-79695128970236802962009-07-02T14:06:03.627-04:002009-07-02T14:06:03.627-04:00Leftside,
Thanks for the clarification! I think I...Leftside,<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification! I think I now understand the legal point of view of both the hound and the fox. Obviously no one in Honduras ever saw the play or movie Becket and forgot the admonition of Becket to Henry II about the importance of aesthetics. The NY Times article does a good job of putting forward the point of view of the Honduran armed forces.<br /><br />Have a nice holiday!<br /><br />Vecino de NFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-33447214273887963992009-07-02T12:21:13.148-04:002009-07-02T12:21:13.148-04:00Yes, again there was a petition with approximately...Yes, again there was a petition with approximately 500,000 signatures - or 800,000. And yes, you can see that the Law says ANY state organ or power can convene participatory measures.leftsidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00676827005815770066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-18929154597286383282009-07-02T11:48:41.187-04:002009-07-02T11:48:41.187-04:00Leftside,
Thank you for both the link and pointin...Leftside,<br /><br />Thank you for both the link and pointing out that Article 5 could be interpreted as the legal basis for the non-binding referendum. That answers part of my question, but FYI I did not stop reading at Article 4. Article 5 articulates the right of citizens to petition the government. So you are saying that a petition was sent to Zelaya to call a non-binding pool, and he took it upon himself to organize it. Did the President of Honduras has a legal right to set up this poll under this Law (I don't see it), or is there another law that addresses this issue?<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />Vecino de NFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-25394851736065686602009-07-02T03:11:35.373-04:002009-07-02T03:11:35.373-04:00Here's the link to the Law of Citizen Particip...Here's the <a href="http://www.serna.gob.hn/institucional/legislacion/Documents/Leyes/23-Ley_de_Participacion_ciudadana.pdf" rel="nofollow">link</a> to the Law of Citizen Participation in case anyone cares.leftsidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00676827005815770066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-19379664183543505742009-07-02T03:09:24.557-04:002009-07-02T03:09:24.557-04:00Vecino, you stopped reading where it counted. Chec...Vecino, you stopped reading where it counted. Check out article 5 in the Citizen Participation Law. It says "any power of the State can convene the general public... to issue opinions, formulate and propose solutions to collective problems affecting them. The results are not binding..." <br /><br />But what gets me is that you refuse to understand that the onus is on those who just kidnapped a President to provide the legal justification - not me. Their reasons were written after the fact. The military admits the decision to remove Zelaya was <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/02/world/americas/02coup.html" rel="nofollow">made</a> "at the last minute." They claim to be acting on a Supreme Court decision that no one has seen. They are making up things as they go along. It is blatant. The Constitution says the military is supposed to be "apolitical, obedient and non-deliberating. In this case, they've even admitted there was "clamour in the ranks" over the decision to intervene. As Central Americans well know, the military must be kept under civilian control. If this is allowed to stand it would set back the region for 20 years. <br /><br />In fact, the more I learn, the more it's clear to me that the pattern of Court and high-military decisions the last week were of such an extraordinary, reaching and capricious manner to render them criminal. From what we've heard, they are based on such complete falsehoods that make it clear this was all part of a an illegal coup, where everyone knew their role and played along. Old, stupid elites who couldn't stand another 7 months of this guy who truly posed little threat to Honduran capitalism but had began telling the truth. <br /><br />They tried to cobble together a weak ass story about the Constitution being broken by a poll as meaningful as American Idol. They made up the whole term-limit issue - totally manufactured it - and many US newspapers printed it as fact. The Court was clearly making law and stepping all over the toes of the executive - saying Zelaya could not fire the top General (as Commander in Chief). The courts are supposed to judicate history not make it. The first ruling was about a binding process of reform. Fine, sorted. Then another that said the State could not pay for a referendum. Fine, sorted... <br /><br />I am disappointed but not surprised that those who claim to love freedom and democracy the most are those who are backing this most crude military putsch the most - completely alone in the world of nations... but the will always have the Herald and WSJ in their corner it appears.leftsidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00676827005815770066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-75027128322932595622009-07-01T20:04:43.319-04:002009-07-01T20:04:43.319-04:00leftside actually living in Cuba hah! He wouldn&#...leftside actually living in Cuba hah! He wouldn't last one week -- as soon as he found out he couldn't find brie and wine at two in the morning he'll high-tail back to the lap of capitalist luxury in Los Angeles before you can say Che Guevara...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-53784557658639336012009-07-01T19:33:37.300-04:002009-07-01T19:33:37.300-04:00Vecino,
lucky for Leftside now there are direct fl...Vecino,<br />lucky for Leftside now there are direct flights from L.A. to Havana. I wonder if he ever consider taking one and settling donw in Cuba. Nah, he loves being in the heart of the "enemy" fighting the good fight. It is here that his wisdom is needed to enlighten thoe wayward right wing gusanos he hates so much. <br />As someone advised him a few postings before, he better get his ass down to Cuba soon before there is a change there. After that somebody may have his name and number and he won't be allowed in as an enemy of the Cuban people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-32821850977131428172009-07-01T18:05:50.561-04:002009-07-01T18:05:50.561-04:00I have asked more than once what LEGAL basis did Z...I have asked more than once what LEGAL basis did Zelaya had to call the referendum? I have not received any satisfactory answers. It appears that the Honduran Armed Forces chief asked the same question and was fired on the spot. The following link (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/1121928.html) from The Miami Herald outlines a chronology of events. Is this chronology in dispute? If it isn't then there was no military takeover in Honduras but rather the Armed Forces acting at the behest of other branches of the government. Apparently today's Wall Street Journal and other outlets are also calling it that way.<br /><br />Vecino de NFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-46272060339614777732009-07-01T15:21:23.312-04:002009-07-01T15:21:23.312-04:00what is it with you knee-jerk leftists anyway?? j...what is it with you knee-jerk leftists anyway?? just because he becomes a born-again Chavista he gets a free pass to trample all over the country's separation of powers??? who are the real anti-democrats here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-22683534686464801092009-07-01T14:25:35.826-04:002009-07-01T14:25:35.826-04:00Leftside,
Please note the comment from Project Di...Leftside,<br /><br />Please note the comment from Project Director! There was a law passed by the Honduran Parliament prohibiting any poll. Zelaya defied the law by going forward with his poll even though there was an injuction against using the polling ballots issued by the Supreme Court.<br /><br />I take it from your response that you do not know of any legal basis for a Honduran president to hold an official poll, and that the only competent body to amend the constitution is the Honduran Parliament. (BTW your references to Zelaya responding to the Supreme Court decision was overtaken by later decisions by both the Supreme Court and the Parliament.)<br /><br />BTW what do you feel needs to be done for me? ("I am afraid there is not much I can do for you.) Just an expression, I hope!<br /><br />Vecino de NFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-87230872481497983622009-07-01T14:24:30.596-04:002009-07-01T14:24:30.596-04:00No leftcrank the real question is why was Zelaya s...No leftcrank the real question is why was Zelaya so intent on circumventing the other institutions of democracy, the legislature and the judiciary?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-21564253542468106202009-07-01T14:11:34.315-04:002009-07-01T14:11:34.315-04:00Vecino, if you don't see the insanity behind j...Vecino, if you don't see the insanity behind justifying a military coup because an informal poll the people of Honduras was about to take place, I am afraid there is not much I can do for you. The real question is why was the establishment so against asking the people, even in a non-binding way, whether they wanted an opportunity to change the Constitution written during the military regime of the 80s? <br /><br />Again, it is true that only the Congress has the right to formally begin the Constitutional reform process. But holding a public opinion poll is not the same thing as beginning that process. Don't you see the legal difference? The Honduran President responded to the Supreme Court decision. He backed down - by makng the poll non-binding.leftsidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00676827005815770066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-48182851663055425542009-07-01T13:55:14.242-04:002009-07-01T13:55:14.242-04:00Anonymous 1:35PM,
Whenever there is dehumanizatio...Anonymous 1:35PM,<br /><br />Whenever there is dehumanization of the other through epithets or branding (gusanos, right wing, nazi, etc), one must wonder if there is a secret wish for eliminating the physical presence of the other. That's why I inquire whether there is a final solution in the works against gusanos, the right wing, and others the arguments break down into name calling.<br /><br />By the way the question "what kind of nazi are You" falls in the category of why do you deny that you abuse children? It's tendentious and sophomoric. BTW do you deny being a Nazi child abuser?<br /><br />Talking about not answering direct questions. I posed one to you and others: "What legal basis could Zelaya use to call a non-binding poll?" I am still waiting for your answer.<br /><br />Although I am tempted to fall in your manichean trap for the sake of getting your ten bucks (cash I assume in this hard times), I would respond that I am not sure that it was a coup in the classical sense (Pinochet, Batista, etc). Power was transferred to a civilian (the right one? see my questions to Project Director on this topic), and the military was an instrument to carry out the wishes of other branches of the government rather than a direct acquirer of political power. (This looks more like what happened in Ecuador with Bucaram or in Haiti with Aristide.)<br /><br />BTW the right wing may not like Chavez, Castro, et alles for the reasons you cited but those who dislike Chavez, Castro, et alles are not all right wingers. Some of them are very respectable Marxist-Leninists.<br /><br />For the record I am not a Nazi, a child abuser, nor a manichean. Also for the record there is only one kind of Nazi: a bad person. Is that direct enough for you?<br /><br />Vecino de NFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-69753330446264777282009-07-01T13:35:41.032-04:002009-07-01T13:35:41.032-04:00vecino, why this obsession with final solutions? o...vecino, why this obsession with final solutions? on your other blog you suggested final solutions for the gusanos, now for the right wingers. what kind of nazi are You<br /><br />so answer the question are you in favor of the coup or not. do you think regardless of your justifications or the questions, do you think the coup was justified. (10 bucks says he won't answer directly)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-24017235749575660682009-07-01T13:21:50.142-04:002009-07-01T13:21:50.142-04:00Project Director,
The Honduran Parliament passed ...Project Director,<br /><br />The Honduran Parliament passed the new law prohibiting referendums within 180 days of an election with a unanimous vote, right? Could you elaborate whether there were any Presidential veto options, and whether the transfer of power to Micheletti is the right order of succession in Honduras?<br /><br />Vecino de NFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-19920427612537542932009-07-01T13:14:29.708-04:002009-07-01T13:14:29.708-04:00The Congress on June 24, 2009 established that the...The Congress on June 24, 2009 established that there could be NO referendum - binding or NOT binding, within 180 days from an election date. The Congress passed that "law" in order to have the "legal" argument for the coup. That is WHY the military refused to administer the non-binding referendum.<br /><br />I suggest that rather than discuss issues on the basis of philosophy, ideology and personal predilections and Phil P pay attention to the details in Honduras. As Cantinflas used to say "en el detalle esta la diferencia." <br /><br />No one has really addressed yet WHY THE COUP TOOK PLACE. The reasons given are bogus, so why get rid of Zelaya just a few months before his term ended?Project Directorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407170358252467727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-79518144451858119762009-07-01T10:30:20.732-04:002009-07-01T10:30:20.732-04:00Anonymous 10:20 AM,
"of course vecino backs ...Anonymous 10:20 AM,<br /><br />"of course vecino backs the coup..."<br /><br />Suggest you read my extensive posting. I asked Leftside a question that you may be able to answer: "what legal basis could Zelaya use to call a non-binding poll?". Do you have the answer to this question?<br /><br />As far as being right wing, do you have a final solution to the "right wing" problem? I just need to know what do you have in mind for people you consider right wing.<br /><br />Vecino de NF<br /><br />PS If you are interested in dialogue, please sign with a handle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-37321236450252594782009-07-01T10:25:25.386-04:002009-07-01T10:25:25.386-04:00Leftside,
Is the "Citizen Participation Law ...Leftside,<br /><br />Is the "Citizen Participation Law of Honduras" you cite the one that was signed by Zelaya on January 27 2006 and published in La Gaceta on February 1st, 2006 (Num 30,917)? Because if it is, I do not find the instrumentation for any kind of poll (binding or non-binding) in it. Plebiscite and referendum are mentioned in articles 3, and 4 but article 4 refers to the Constitution and other laws as far as the instrumentation of either one. So the previous question stands: what legal basis could Zelaya use to call a non-binding poll?<br /><br />As far as 500,000 Hondurans signing a petition calling for constitutional reform, it sounds to me that's a call to the Honduran parliament to consider it (according to the Honduran constitution the Parliament is the legally constituted body that can start a constitutional reform or the process to amend the constitution). There were to be elections later this year and it would have been legitimate for different candidates to run on this very issue if it was so important to so many Hondurans. Having said that you can start to collect the 35,000,000 signatures to change the US Constitution to your liking, but unless you get 2/3 of each house of the US Congress to propose your amendment , and 3/4 of the states legislature to ratify it, good luck getting your change instituted in a constitutional manner!<br /><br />As far as whether I personally support the coup or not, all I have to say is that is an internal Honduran matter to be resolved by Hondurans. Not being a Honduran I have no dog in that fight except a natural sympathy for democratic government implemented through the rule of law. On that basis I have very little sympathy for Zelaya's actions, and I feel sorry that Hondurans could not remove him from power through a less dramatic process.<br /><br />I must also publish a legal disclaimer. I am not a lawyer in Honduras nor an expert in Honduran law. Any comments expressed in this blog are just observations based on my reading of Honduran laws and newspaper accounts. No one should rely on my comments on this subject as legal advise on Honduras law.<br /><br />Vecino de NFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-62236146326743383342009-07-01T10:20:34.848-04:002009-07-01T10:20:34.848-04:00of course vecino backs the coup, he certainly hasn...of course vecino backs the coup, he certainly hasn't condemned it, his right wing perspective has been consistent throughout this blog; his attempts to justify what has happened in honduras just solidifies that. <br /><br />a referendum for the people to decide something (binding or not) opposed by the political elite. can't have that happen in the right wing world's perspective of democracy. that's what drives them crazy about chavez, castro and the move in Latin America.<br /><br />a political crises, if there even was one, decided by a military coup. hmmm, that's good old style right wing politics. keep up the good workAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-37675512600167673072009-07-01T09:05:46.454-04:002009-07-01T09:05:46.454-04:00the only blunder here was made by Zelaya trying to...the only blunder here was made by Zelaya trying to circumvent Honduras's system of checks and balances.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-35603863808177788492009-07-01T02:57:42.738-04:002009-07-01T02:57:42.738-04:00Who is in a hole? Only the Honduran military and r...Who is in a hole? Only the Honduran military and right-wing who have made a historic blunder. They are totally 100% isolated. <br /><br />Vecino, the Law of Citizen Participation <a href="http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/kristin-bricker/2009/06/honduras-prepares-sundays-controversial-opinion-poll" rel="nofollow">allows</a> people to sign petitions to address a grievance or concern. In this case, <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x17068" rel="nofollow">500,000</a> Hondurans (almost 1/6 voters - or 35 million Americans) signed their names requesting Constitutional reform. <br /><br />And again, there was a law against changing the Constitution with regards to term limits. There was a law that said you needed Congressional approval for a Constitutional referendum. Neither of those things were to take place on Sunday. Holding a non-binding poll is not illegal. Again, the court ruled on a a binding poll. <br /><br />Vecino, are you really backing the coup?leftsidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00676827005815770066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-56930711952413777442009-06-30T19:47:48.312-04:002009-06-30T19:47:48.312-04:00leftside, when you're in a hole, the best thin...leftside, when you're in a hole, the best thing to do is stop diggingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5851163370258594999.post-66801266847589744302009-06-30T18:24:53.838-04:002009-06-30T18:24:53.838-04:00Leftside,
Could you please post a link or referen...Leftside,<br /><br />Could you please post a link or reference to The Citizen Participation Law of Honduras?<br /><br />As far as "you don't need a Court or a Congress to authorize a public opinion poll", it would appear common sense that a government can not take an action outside the law as enacted by a legislative branch and determined by a judicial branch. Does Honduras law allows the President of Honduras to spend public monies on a poll without legislative sanction?<br /><br />Vecino de NFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com