Juanes, the day after
- In today’s Herald, Lydia Martin and Jordan Levin round up the concert itself and the reaction in Miami.
- Yoani Sanchez comments on the concert at the Huffington Post: “It was a rare experience to be there, without shouting slogans and without having to applaud mechanically when the tone of the speech marked that it was the time to cheer…at least this Sunday afternoon we live something different.”
- Prompted by Univision’s Jorge Ramos to discuss a U.S. role in the event – “Did it get your blessing?” – President Obama played it cool: “I don’t think it’s a matter of us providing blessings…Let me be clear. The U.S. government isn’t a concert promoter…I certainly don’t think it hurts U.S.-Cuban relations, these kinds of cultural exchanges. I wouldn't overstate the degree that it helps…What I’d really like to see is Cuba starting to show that it wants to move away from some of the anti-democratic practices of the past.”
- At Versailles, the wonderful Calle Ocho bakery and restaurant, Vigilia Mambisa brought a steamroller to smash CD’s and photos of Juanes, AFP reports. Police intervened in a “brief confrontation” between Cuban Americans who supported the concert and those opposed.
- Also in Miami, Telemundo billed it the “Concert of Discord,” which would be the biggest stretch in this whole saga, were it not for the advent of Gorki Aguila of the band Porno para Ricardo on the Miami media scene. “I have my weak moments,” he told the Herald, “Sometimes I feel like Christ on the cross – ‘why did you abandon me’…But if I don’t do what I’m doing I’d lose much of the sense in my life.”
im all for those who oppose the concert, why let those damn cubans enjoy anything at all? make them suffer till they scream and do what we tell them to.
ReplyDeletestark contrast between the great unbiased free press Herald story and the terrible state controlled report in the commie rag Granma.
miami libre is what we should all be yelling.
To those that in this and other blog continue using derogatory language against Cubans who do not agree with the Cuban government, please follow Juanes' suggestion for a single Cuban family "with all and for the benefit of all". A family does not require uniformity of opinion or purpose just mutual respect and love. Would you call a brother or a sister a worm (gusano) because he or she happens to disagree with you?
ReplyDeleteViva Cuba Libre indeed!
Vecino de NF
in the early years of the revolution one of the most effective American policies against Cuba was isolation.
ReplyDeletethe gusanos still think its 1962. thank god it aint.
first anonymous is ridiculous. The Herald sucks, but it's no Granma. Best evidence is the fact that the same people you criticize, refuse to read the Herald because of its "bias."
ReplyDeletePeters, you sound somewhat perturbed that Gorki had the temerity to open his mouth and spoil everything. You're right, who does he think he is? someone who lives in Cuba? a Cuban musician? Someone needs to tell him to shut up and enjoy the concert...or else.
ReplyDeletechingon
Does the Cuban government's support of the Juanes' concert mean that it is ready to accept something outside of the revolution? (Anyone remembers Fidel Castro's admonition to the intellectuals :"Inside the Revolution, everything! Outside, nothing!")
ReplyDeleteVecino de NF
"You're right, who does he think he is? someone who lives in Cuba? a Cuban musician? Someone needs to tell him to shut up and enjoy the concert...or else"
ReplyDeleteHe is a no one. His group sucks, his music sucks badly and his opinion have the same weight that any one else's.
In Cuba there is not shortage of good musicians, but Gorky made a name of itself playing the role of dissident harassed by the government, not as an artist.
Were Carlos Varela saying the same, things were different and your argument might be valid, but Gorky? Who cares about what that bad mouthed moron says?
"Does the Cuban government's support of the Juanes' concert mean that it is ready to accept something outside of the revolution?"
ReplyDeleteWe will never know for sure, they lost the chance, now whatever we say is plain speculation and nothing more.
AC, I know news travels a little slow across the pond, but the Cuban people lost the chance of something outside the revolution like...50 years ago?
ReplyDeletechingon
"AC, I know news travels a little slow across the pond, but the Cuban people lost the chance of something outside the revolution like...50 years ago?"
ReplyDeleteThats for them to decide, I just pointed that they missed the chance to put that statement to the test at the Juanes concert, thats all.
ac,
ReplyDeleteWhat do you expect from Gorky? He is a punk rock-and-roller for goodness sake. He is supposed to be an outsider sticking it to the Man, a Syd Vicious without the heroin habit! C'mon lighten up! What's next complaining that anarchists can never set up a good government?
Vecino de NF
as someone who loved the Clash and the Sex Pistols I can appreciate Gorky. Yes Sid Vicious was a "fabulous disaster" but he was riveting. Gorky isn't quite the same (there can only be one Joe Strummer and one Johnny Rotten) but I appreciate the attitude.
ReplyDeleteActually I listened to Gorky's stuff before his arrest so he had to be somewhat known for me to hear him.
I'm just pointing to the obvious, there are more rockers in Cuba that sucks less bad than Gorky and even a couple of them that are bearable. Darn, thinking in something worst that PPR there falls in the raeggeton category!
ReplyDeleteThe point is, I don't expect anything in particular from Gorky. I don't even care of whatever he has to say (notice that I'm not denying his right to say whatever he wants). There are far better people in the dissidence to pay heed to this particular piece of crap and yes, if you want to make a government, do not look between anarchists. They wont be of any use... not even as bad example.
"Actually I listened to Gorky's stuff before his arrest so he had to be somewhat known for me to hear him."
ReplyDeleteMy condolences, their only track I can hear without going nuts is the mock version they did to Bremensk Musicanty.
Its just not my thing.
fidel's comment re inside and outside the revolution is much more complex than at first blush. there has always been space for critical thought in Cuba, within the context of what the revolution was and is trying to accomplish. far too many historical examples to list -- but one would be the hard critical examination of the failed 1970 harvest. what fidel seemed to comment (not just to intellectuals) was that anything that threatens the revolution's essence would not be tolerated. sort of like any nation would react following such a social upheaval, and having to maintain it under constant external threat and siege. (anyone with any historical knowledge of American Revolution would see similarities, including the expulsions of the Loyalists and expropriation of their lands -- with NO compensation.)
ReplyDeletein that context how did the concert threaten the revolution? it was a concert.
it fits right in with fidels comment.
anon point, there's just as much, if not more, politics being played in miami, only the propaganda is much more effective as it's swallowed under the hypocritical 'free' press. everyone knows granma for what it is, but there are so many who still believe in the Herald. pity
ReplyDeleteThe American Revolution did not advocate the same political and social values upheld by the Cuba Revolution; the modes of securing what has been acquired are naturally similar, but the ideals are vastly disparate. Let us not be blind like the Cuban majority, who may never garner the chivalry captured by the Honduran and Iranian people--voices that demand attention.
ReplyDeleteEl Odio
Anonymous September 21, 2009 6:12 PM,
ReplyDeleteCould you please cite any source for the claim that "the expulsions of the Loyalists and expropriation of their lands -- with NO compensation" after the American Revolution was done by government action?
Vecino de NF
ac,
ReplyDeleteIf you don't like someone, do not acknowledge his/her existence! It works in NYC subway!
Vecino de NF
Oye el odio,
ReplyDeleteI hope that the type of "chivalry" demonstrated in the recent coup in Honduras is indeed dead!
"If you don't like someone, do not acknowledge his/her existence! "
ReplyDeleteWell, I don't like his music and don't consider his ideas better than chingon, lefside or yours, but he does exist, that much I acknowledge.
If I only pay attention to the cozy facts and deny those I don't like, I'll be living forever in delusion land. Ita a warmer place when sun always shine, but truth is what make us free.
Zelaya down. The Communist Anti-American Coalition, the neo-Axis Powers, will all follow suit. In due time, caballero, in due time.
ReplyDeleteEl Odio
On Planet 6:12, the histories of the American Revolution and the Cuban Revolution are comparable.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous September 21, 2009 6:51 PM,
ReplyDelete"...but truth is what make us free"
Now you are quoting Holy Scripture and the CIA's motto. But what is truth, alas?
"... don't consider his ideas better than chingon, lefside or yours, ..."
And all this time, I thought you liked me. I am hurt.
Vecino de NF
Vecino de NF
"Now you are quoting Holy Scripture and the CIA's motto. But what is truth, alas?"
ReplyDeleteThats for each to discern ;)
"And all this time, I thought you liked me. I am hurt."
I do, thats why I consider your opinion better than his. I would REALLY hurt your feelings if I consider HIM better than you three. C'mon, don't get sentimental here, you three pretty much cover most positions of the debate in this blog (at least between the habitual posters).
Esta vez estoy en desacuerdo contigo Vecino. Alexéi Maxímovich que aproveche los chavos que pueda hacer ahora, a costa de la política, que no creo que la música le de mucho en el futuro...
ReplyDeletepOpEyE
It is now clear the concert was a CIA set-up, Phil! It was a hoax perpetrated on the revolutionary authorities, as the REAL revolutionaries now understand, too late to stop the plot.
ReplyDeleteJuanes and his gang just PRETENDED to support peace, but when they got on the stage the reactionary saboteur shocked and outraged the revolutionary masses by calling for "Cuba Libre," as if Cuba isn't ALREADY the First Free Territory of the Americas! His reactionary sneers were repeated by the other so-called "musicians" in his revanchist cabal.
I KNEW we should have suspected the worst when kaosenlared.net exposed Juanes for the crypto-fascist Uribe supporter that he actually is!
10:10 - you are aware that "Cuba Libre" has quite a different meaning to Cubans on the island than it does on Calle Ocho? "Viva Cuba Libre" is one of the most common things one hears there - a proud expression of sovereignty. Yelling "Libre a Cuba" would have been something else...
ReplyDeleteI'm sure the grito was pretty well thought out. It leaves just enough ambiguity to get him some Miami fans back. The "all one Cuban family" chant was probably more controversial...
I felt the spontaneous crowd-driven yells of "Cuba, Cuba" and "Viva Cuba" throughout the concert probably had more feeling behind them than any of the thought-out stuff. I got goosebumps.
Leftside, since when has a cold-hearted Fidelista like yourself been able to exert such an emotion as a "goosebump?" You are a damn gas. Stop it, you are making me blush.
ReplyDeleteActually, surprised it was only goosebumps. Would have thought it brought Leftside full wood.
ReplyDeletevecino
ReplyDeletewhen helms burton passed there were dozens of threats from Canadian descendants of Loyalists who said they were going to sue America for the land they lost due to expropriations, (by the revolutionary government) from lands now being used by Americans. you are extremely well versed in the internet, i'm sure you can find many examples. there have been many books on that subject. the history of the loyalists is extensive, whole towns in New Brunswick were settled by those who left the American revolution by choice, or were forced to leave. There was substantial amount of violence against those loyalists who tried to stay in America.
the point is revolutions change things, the assignment of ideals is strictly subjective -- the American Revolution was seen as dangerous to the reactionaries then as the Cuban Revolution has been opposed for the past 50 years. lets see where cuba is in 100 years from now, as long as the america side ends its hostility.
the American revolution maintained slavery, the genocide of the native population -- so ideals are an interesting way to debate the merits of social revolutions. American ideals have evolved over more than 200 years, but the gusanos don't want that to happen in cuba.
oye hate -- the american revolution upheld white landowers as the only political power base -- everyone else was "outside" their revolution as far as wielding political power. social justice was an impossible concept for them to develop in an era of slavery and native genocide.
ReplyDeleteit has taken the american society hundreds of years to develop where it is today, with all its faults (when were the civil rights law passed -- in the 18th or 20th century?)
of course you have no concept (acknowledgment) of any of the social justice programs the cubans instituted right after their revolution. but that's ok,we all know you wear your name with honor, if that term can be applied to a gusano.
Anonymous September 22, 2009 8:44 AM,
ReplyDeleteThe question still stands. Was there GOVERNMENT ACTION to expel the loyalists and to confiscate their property at either the national level (doubt it, the Continental Congress was ineffective), or at the state level after the American Revolution? That there was spontaneous "political cleansing" is beyond dispute.
As far "American ideals have evolved over more than 200 years, but the gusanos don't want that to happen in cuba.", it might be a good idea to drop the gusano slur and other over the top language, and bring to the table actual grievances and desires, and to acknowledge that all sides have grievances and desires. Then change may happen but that would mean that some power has to be relinquished by the Cuban government.
Vecino de NF
why don't you just collect all of your thoughts for one post instead of trying to convince everyone there are actually two misfits arguing the same line...
ReplyDeletewhy don't you just collect all of your thoughts for one post instead of trying to convince everyone there are actually two misfits arguing the same line...
ReplyDeleteyes vecino, there was government action to dispel loyalists from america; you can parse it or try and compromise it as you like. what is the difference if state government action or national govt action in relations to the time it happened? the point is the action in reaction to the revolution, not trying to say state government or national government comparison of powers at that time of america's history. the action is the point, nothing else.
ReplyDeleteboth sides have grievances, when the gusano side simply wants to destroy instead of reform, they earn the label.
but again, that's not the point, regarding how countries develop
over time is the point. so sorry, remove the gusano name and address the point if you'd like to.
Anonymous September 22, 2009 11:17 AM,
ReplyDeleteCentral to the issue of the Loyalists leaving the early United States for more British pastures is whether the action was government instigated or a reaction to perceived social conditions because on that similarity rests the comparison between the Cuban who left Cuba after 1959 and the Loyalists. The large majority of Cubans who have left Cuba to reside elsewhere permanently left because they felt they were denied by the Cuban government (through legislation none the less) the ability to develop according to their desires. These are not just the members of 100 families who owned sugar mills. These number almost a million individuals who felt they could not work on what they like, express their opinions freely, associate with whom they like, etc. To top it all they are called gusanos in an apparent nod to the parasite connotation. (Funny people who like to live from their own work are called parasites while the ones that expect the government to provide all are called what exactly?)
I'll grant you there are about another 11 million individuals in Cuba who appear to be happy with the current socio-political system in Cuba. Appear is the operative word here because not a day goes by that their relatives or friends outside of Cuba are not called, written to, or contacted otherwise in what appears to be a series of desperate requests for cash, consumer goods, visa sponsorhips, airline tickets, medicines, etc. Finding out the true extent of discontent with current living and political conditions in Cuba is impossible without breaking the law so for now we must be content with appearances and what conclusions we can derive from them.
So there you have it. If there are specific grievances or requests to be addressed by normalizing relations between Cuba and the USA, let's hear them! The same goes for issues that need to be reconciled between Cubans who disagree with the Cuban government and that government.
Vecino de NF
thousands of Loyalists left American because they felt they could no longer live under the new social/economic conditions, lost standing in the community, lost business opportunities and had no desire to live under the radically new political social system.
ReplyDeleteLoyalists by the thousands felt threatened that they could not express their views in public, as well as being impeded in organized meetings.
Thousands of Loyalists who wanted to stay were ostracized, punished, yes even imprisoned and tortured for their continued support of the previous regime. Thousands of Loyalists lost everything as a result of individual action and from government policy. The states (particularly NY and Mass) at the time introduced considerable legislation to encourage and force Loyalists to leave. ANd at the time state govt had in many respects as much if not more influence than the Congressional Congress, as you point out.
Loyalists left with nothing in their possession, but built new communities in a land they were unfamiliar with, but connected to.
So, if you don't want to see any commonality, that's your right. but you'd be wrong.
There is a difference however, the British continued to have their problems with this new socialist government in the USA, but when the lost they were man enough to get on with the business of doing business with the new nation (despite some nastiness in between, 1812 for one example)
so why can't teh americans, after 50 years, take away the same lessons. because all the issues are smokescreens (and resolvable) -- the americans simply want to re-establish hegemony. they are sore losers. they don't want resolution, they want deconstruction.
"why can't the americans, after 50 years, take away the same lessons. because all the issues are smokescreens (and resolvable) -- the americans simply want to re-establish hegemony...."
ReplyDeleteThank you, anon, for your plainspoken and comon sensical contribution to this discussion. After all, it is not as if the Coma Andante is interested in hegemony! When will those silly imperialists realize that they, and not Comrade Stalin or the much misunderstood Fuhrer (as made clear by the Hitler-Stalin Pact), was the true genocidal tyrant of the 20th century? It is all so simple when a few basic facts about America's wickedness are known and recognized!
At last, the conspiracy behind the so-called "peace concert" has been divulged! They tried to fool us, people, it was all a CIA HOAX! The masses in attendance at the "concert" were not fooled, unlike the credulous puppet "journalists" of the visiting bourgeois press. In fact, a few representatives of the relevant Organ (who just happened to be in attendance) had to restrain the enraged masses from rushing the stage and subjecting those CIA frontpersons "Juanes" and "Bose" to exemplary People's Justice. See:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kaosenlared.net/noticia/juanes-miguel-bose-abanderados-fascismo-rostro-amable
Anonymous September 22, 2009 8:33 PM,
ReplyDelete"The states (particularly NY and Mass) at the time introduced considerable legislation to encourage and force Loyalists to leave."
Could you please provide a citation for the above statement?
The relations between the US and Great Britain were very strained during much of the XIX century to the point that GB was actively courted by the CSA for recognition, and Mr.Lincoln was not very much appreciated in the English press. The so-called special relationship only came to be after Pearl Harbor. After all the dougboys went to France during WWI with the cry "Lafayette we are back".
So we must agree to differ on this topic.
Vecino de NF
GB never embargoed the americans that maintained itself for more than 50 years, never sent terrorists nor did they force other nations through legislation to deny trade to the americans. Relations were more than cordial well before WWII; and GB always recognized the difference between politics and economics. Political differences of course remained throughout the 19th century, but the british did not try to strangle the american revolution as the americans have always tried to do with the cuban revolution.
ReplyDeleteit's funny how the americans just never can appreciate the irony of that. (and not talking about the merits of each revolution; revolutions are what they are)
there are many fine history books about the loyalists; written mostly by Canadian and english authors (history is so much point of view) that demonstrate there was a government orchestrated movement to get rid of the loyalists -- understanding the structures of government at the time. (not to discount individual efforts, but like any revolution, take the french as well, the new ruling govt did it's best to rid itself of loyalists of the old regime. getting rid of teh opposition is very effective way to solidify new govt, cubans are experts at that. not sure why you imply the american revolution was different, but a guess that may be usual perspectives of american history)
it's good you defend the american revolution as you do, but revolutions are just that, and the american one had all the good and bad trappings of any revolution. (and they say the strength of any revolution is the strength of the counter-revolution)
WWI -- wilson was desperate to get into the war because of pro british sentiments, even using the ploy of putting americans on british ships that he knew would be subject to attack by german uboats. with expected tragic results, (Lusitania) Wilson then used it to manipulate outraged public opinion as an excuse to fight with the British. (slogans in support of the french notwithstanding) the reason why the American govt finally got into the war, (late as usual) was overwhelmingly in support of the British.
and during the war many americans were jailed, Eugene Debs etal, for simply voicing opposition to the war. they were considered dissidents, many were accused of being in support of the enemy, so the govt jailed them with little judicial process. hmmmm.....
an excellent book on American political manipulations to get into Cuba's war of independence, and WWI - the Politics of War by Walter Karp.
yes, always agree to disagree, but there are facts that should not be in dispute. the problem with facts is opinions always get in the way, from both sides. and the hardest part is to see things from the other side, no matter how difficult it may seem
Anonymous September 24, 2009 8:59 AM,
ReplyDeleteA citation supporting the notion that the expulsion of the Loyalists was the result of government action, please?
As far as defending the American Revolution, please quote me, because I do not remember making such an statement! The American Revolution is a historical event not a political position to be supported or attacked.
Vecino de NF